kittens & hand biting

The easiest question to ask is: Why do they do it at all?

The more complicated way:
James and Penny, like many other cats we've had, have this tendency to see the hands (and feet) as a playmate/opponent to be tussled with.
Over the years, with the cats we've had, I have allowed the cats to do that with me, so long as they did not draw blood when biting. I've not had any major leaks from scratching, but I've had some scratches from an overzealous kitty. Cindel was able, at the same time, to teach the cats that her hands were off limits.

With James and Penny, we have decided that we should try and just keep the whole thing off limits (per suggestions from some websites that talk about starting proper behavior early with kittens).

The problems we are running into is that 1) the water gun works *too* well for James. I mean, he is terrified of it. He's not associated the water with the spray bottle yet, but when he's hit with the water, he panics, and generally chooses to avoid doing *anything* that he was doing at the time. Not just the "bad" thing, but everything. It took us a few hours to get him comfortable with being on the bed again after one shot from the water when he was attacking Cindels foot (which was under the blankets).

That brings up the second question. "Bed Bugs" as we like to call them. Meaning, when you have your feet/hands under the blankets, and the cats attack because they see an unknown moving around under the covers.
How do you deal with that sort of thing, and is it something that can be trained out, or is it okay to even encourage that as an alternative?

Any info would be appreciated. thanks. :)

Hiya, my boys are just over a year now and as I didn't mind this behaviour, infact I enjoyed it I never tried to correct it and it wasnt until reading your post that I realised it had stopped along time ago.
So I suppose my answer is just to wait. In the mean-time you could just stop playing with them as soon as it escalates, as for the duvet thing, I loved that stage.

I havent had to physically correct any behaviour, theyve got two scratch posts and a mat down stairs and one post and a mat upstairs and when they on occasion did tretch up to the leather sofa, I clicked my fingers near to their face, now if they do anything I dont like e.g when their play fighting gets too rough with each other I can click my fingers from the otherside of thr room. Just an idea, of course theyre all completely different.

I agree - I make a loud sound when they hurt me and move myself away and I allow them the bed bug behaviour as they do grow out of it...until then it's just harmless fun.

I don't do the water spray either because they love playing with water and I don't want them to see it as a bad thing.

I havnt stopped either behaviours either. I do say "claws" as a word if they are being a bit rough and my cats have always let go when I say it. I even say it if they are biting a bit hard but have hardly ever had to use it. Zack is still learning but doesnt seem to bite hard or be too rough with his claws anyway

I love it when they play on the bed and actually run my fingers under the covers on purpose and cackle when they leap into the air to catch it. They seem to work it out themselves when is playtime and dont do it when the lights are out and when I am asleep. Hopefully wont regret that statement!!!!

I do use a water bottle - the breeder recommended it and it hasnt made any difference to them playing in water. Hardly ever use it but certainly did when Zack had a go at a few electric cords and it sure stopped him in his tracks.

We too use a water bottle for goldfish and cable protection! Hector seems to be squirted the most as if is the goldfish obsessed one. Roxy we think has now lost the taste for speaker wire well fingers crossed she has anyway! But Hector gets squirted a couple of times a day he gives himself away as he grunts at the poor fish and then stares at you when you pick the bottle up as if to say go on then I dare you.

I agree with candes and Cooniemum. When our Monty was younger he could be a bit rough while playing. Once he mistook my leg for a nice tree to climb in, which resulted in something of a bloodbath (with me as the victim). I screamed OUCH! at the top of my voice, and with the startled looking little Monstrosity sitting next to me I kept whimpering theatrically for a few seconds more. Then I purposely ignored him for a minute or so. I could tell by his behaviour and body language that he'd somehow grasped he'd gone too far. He's never been this careless with me since.:satisfied:

As for the Bed Bugs... I really enjoy that game! Tatja and Monty are gradually losing interest, but Minnie still loves to play.:winkwink:

Also, no water spray is ever used here. A loud 'Hey!' when they do something naughty is sufficient. Or when they are on the kitchen worktop trying to steal food I just pick them up and gently put them down on the floor. After two or three times they get the message and stop trying.

GabbyCat LOVED the duvet game and continued to play it until just before she died (she was 13 when she got kidney cancer and had to be put to sleep). Whisper is 13 now and still happily plays the game. Hobbes also enjoys it and as various cats do/have slept on the bed with us, I can vouch for the fact that they seem to learn the difference between "game time" and "sleep time" very early on,
As for the biting thing - Hobbes bit on us when he was smaller and when we wailed at him in "pain", he converted the bite into vigorous licking - he is now 14 months and simply licks (no bites). Alice never did bite or nibble. Paddy (will introduce him properly later) bites but a swift howl from us is, again, converting this into licks - and he is just over 5 months. He certainly chomped on my hand when we were introduced but it seems to be a "baby" thing and he is growing out of it.
As for the water spray thing..........Hobbes so loves water, he'd probably just try to drink the jet of the stuff coming in his direction:LOL:.......seriously though, we'd read about it but have never used it.

I have one that used to play bite but she has no sense of how much she hurt & nothing would stop her so she is the one that got banned to her room for time out & in the end took herself off if she knew she had overstepped the mark,she now sometimes just gently teethes you & looks at the same time to see if you are going to say anything,which of course we don't as she has now learnt not to draw blood,only one other does occasionally play bite but doesn't hurt.They all love playing tootsies so have to make sure that no more than two are on the bed at the same time,I find the bedding suffers more than anything when they pounce although if you are unlucky enough to be having a drink at the same time as 18kg plus descends then it can become difficult trying to keep fluid in mug !
As for water spray,yes,in the past I have used it reguarly,with six & one of them who does not know what the word "No" means I have found it a lot better detterant than the voice only command, especially if things are getting a bit out of hand they now respect it & I only have to lift it & you get the "oops better stop"look but also as others have found it hasn't put them off of the love of water,splashing & playing around in it is a lot different to a quick spurt from behind & a no...Did find with only two cats a no & take their minds off of it with something else worked well but as the family grew......Fishwife screaming comes to mind until the spray returned some sanity. Luv em all though & wouldn't be without em.life would be sooo boring !

She does play bite, mainly me as I am the main play thing and I use my hands to instigate play as well, but her bites are very restrained like she knows it's my hand and not a mouse to kill, if she hurts I just either say ouch and ignore her or put my fingers further into her mouth which she doesn't like
No probs with either method
We did try a water gun but although she didnt like it - ran off and grumped, it has made no difference to her coming back to play or as a deterrent

The bed thing, Lily is quite evil to the duvet cover, she picks it up and shakes it hard to kill it, not something we try to encourage :(

Hands under the duvet game? That's the best game ever! And you squirted the poor creature with water?? No wonder the poor little chap didn't get back on the bed...

When they do need a deterrent, I don't have a water pistol or similar, but what I find works really well is the hairdryer. Yes I need to have it to hand and plugged in, but if prepared, it does the trick. Now I only have to show it to them, not even turn it on.

At other times, a loud 'Oi!' or 'No!' will suffice. Like with dogs, you have to have the intent behind the word/gesture. For example, Monty is a bugger with the wet washing. When I'm pulling it out of the machine he likes to grab hold of it and run off with it. He caught me with all his claws yesterday and I shouted 'NOOOO! THAT HURTS!!!' Boy did he look contrite. I showed him the scratches and said again 'That HURT Monty!' He took himself off, tail between legs....

Verbal discipline doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent for these two.

Penny is the worse of the two. She will temporarily stop if you say "Ow!" and such, but then she's right back at it again a little later.

Last night was *really* bad. We have been trying to get things done in the basement so the kittens can go down there, and we're trying to prepare for family to come over next week.
As such, we let them sleep a bit too long yesterday afternoon. Last night we must have been up til 1am with the kittens racing around the room, attacking our hands, feet, faces, etc., then they went to sleep, and decided at 5:30am that it was time to start again.

I'm sooo sleepy right now

No, mine don't exactly sleep through the night either. They are up at 5 or 6 am larking about. So we shut them downstairs in the kitchen with acess to their litter trays, so even if they start playing at the crack of dawn, we won't hear a thing. We just have to make sure that we've left nothing out which might attract their attention - food, bread, food wrappers, etc. We now have to put the kitchen bin in a cupboard or they would raid it and spread the contents all around the floor (this has happened a few times!).

Yesterday I stupidly left the bacon out (but wrapped up). We went out for a bit and when we got back, they had unwrapped the bacon, separated the 3 slices, taken one slice off and left it in bits on the floor. All of it had been licked and chewed. The dog couldn't believe his luck, he gobbled up as much as he could before we could stop him! But this was our fault, there was no point telling them off, as I gave them the opportunity, and the deed was well and truly done.

Kittens definitely tend to bite too hard--it takes a while for them to learn what is acceptable. Remember also that their baby teeth are exceptionally sharp so it hurts even more than it would later, and they go through stages when they are teething and so are quite prone to wanting to chew/bite. My experience is that they eventually are less into biting as they mature, and that simply stopping rough play will fairly quickly teach them not to bite too much.

Kittens are very cute and fun to watch grow up, but they are also quite a bit of work!

That's funny that you mention baby teeth. I have grown up with cats. The first cat in my life was 6months older than I was, and she was with our family until she was 16. We got kittens after her, and so on.

Yet while studying Maine Coons before we made a commitment to get some, we came across the baby teeth issue.

I had no clue that cats had baby teeth in a similar manner to humans! :rofl:

Larry and Monty have just been through a stage where their new canine teeth have started to come through, BEFORE the canine milk teeth have dropped out. So for a few days they've had DOUBLE canine teeth, on both sides! I never knew this was going to happen!

We've been checking regularly to see when the milk teeth drop out, and now they have, one by one. Last night we checked Larry and sure enough, he was down to 2 brand new perfect canine teeth. Then we noticed on the floor the tiny milk tooth, so we picked it up and put it in a jar......next to pensioner Barney's old canine tooth which fell out a few months back, which as you can imagine is very long and wizened. The very old tooth and the very young tooth!

Yes I know, pair of saddoes we are...

Well, we've had mixed results.

Via using "ow!" and some water spritzing, James only does the play biting when he's not interested in being petted. This is clear.

Penny however is a serious problem. Earlier today, she switched from wanting to be petted, to trying to bite my fingertips multiple times. Each time she'd bit, I'd grab her by the scruff and lift her a little and firmly, but not loudly, say "no".

This does not seem to deter her at all. :sad1:

Aww, it's all a big fun game to her at the moment! I'm sure she'll calm down as she gets older.

We quite like the Duvet game, and to be fair to Freyja she generally only plays it when the lights are on - once it's dark, she tends to settle down and jump off the bed to sprawl out on the floor. Sometimes she gets into psychokitty mode, and all I need to do then is get a garden mist can out and she calms right down - she's only been 'misted' once (I deliberately used a mister instead of a spray) and now she only needs to see the can and she stops.

She also likes a good chew on fingers and knuckles, and I know you're not supposed to encourage it but she looks like a proper little lion when she's in that mood and is impossible to resist. Plus, she's never drawn blood with her teeth or claws, and if her chomping gets uncomfortably hard I just have to say 'calm down' and blow gently in her face - she stops the gnawing and licks the spot she's just had her fangs in. I know she can bite much harder than she does, 'cos I've watched her chewing Freddie The Fairy often enough. Claws are the only real issue, to be honest - her back feet in particular. I've perfected the art of holding onto her back feet and saying 'claws' quite firmly (admittedly, this has had varying success!), but mainly she grips my hands with her front paws to hold them in place whilst she clamps her face round my fingers!

Well, the biting seems to be subsiding, but I'll tell Cindel about the scruff thing, though I have to laugh because when I pick up Penny, which I do in a gentle manner, she keeps purring. It's like she enjoys it.
James is far better behaved, but I think Penny is getting the message.
I agree on the toys thing, and will see about enforcing that. I think it's possible that they are over-toyed right now.
Catnip is something we have, but have read that it shouldn't be given to kittens, especially since it apparently doesn't affect them.
I know they are babies. I'm just overprotective, over-worried. I want so much to get them into good habits, and prevent some of the things i"ve seen in the past with cats that my parents and friends have owned.

They sure are getting big though! 3 months and 2 weeks and already they are surprisingly large for their age. We may yet get our dream of having *really* big cats. :)

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Originally Posted by candes

Being lifted by the scruff of the neck in punishment will just promote the opposite affect. It will make kitty more aggressive. And tend not to like you. Do it and risk losing a loving friend.

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What you say is not really accurate. Here is an article I found quickly with more explanation:
Scruffing your cat or dog - the scruff of the neck in cats and dogs - Article on Pets.ca

In fact, vet techs are often taught to pill cats and dogs by holding them gently by the scruff of the neck. They don't lift the animal off the ground, just pull a bit. Makes the animals relax and open their mouths a bit and pills can be easily popped right in. I have watched this being done to many animals and it does not scare them or make them aggressive. In fact, it is much easier on the animals than struggling with them.

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Raised many cats throughout my life, and none of them would bite or scratch. Cats pick up emotions and voice tones much easier than you imagine

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You are claiming that none of your kittens have ever bitten you?? I find this very, very hard to believe (unless you never really played with your young animals). Not only is this counter to my experience with every single kitten or puppy that I have ever had, but biting is an instinctual way that they play with each other, so of course they are going to play with us like that until they learn not to. It doesn't hurt them because they have fur, but we don't so it does hurt us and they have to learn that. Also kittens and puppies go through periods when they are teething and they chew on almost everything. The notion that these people's kittens are biting them only because they aren't talking to them properly or some such thing is frankly rubbish in my opinion. Young kittens and puppies engage in play with their teeth, and they will do it with each other and with us until we train them not to.